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LF SOP
Jun 20, 2013 22:09:05 GMT -5
Post by vtguania on Jun 20, 2013 22:09:05 GMT -5
Wondering if anyone has any ideas for LF SOP? IS there a standard that will be followed according to existing standards for RO? Would like some feedback see where we stand, Thanks.
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LF SOP
Jun 21, 2013 11:37:16 GMT -5
Post by Ivy on Jun 21, 2013 11:37:16 GMT -5
I completely agree. We need to at least begin to establish a dialogue towards a LF standard. Perhaps someone can find the common areas in the current know standards from the other sources, then we could discuss whether or not we agree with specific aspects. There is alot in common between them. One thing we have to bear in mind is that whatever we come up with, it has to mesh with the bantam standard that already exists.
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LF SOP
Jun 21, 2013 18:49:32 GMT -5
Post by vtguania on Jun 21, 2013 18:49:32 GMT -5
Sounds like a plan. I've printed out the standards posted here & will look through it try to find the common areas. I will also keep the Bantam standard in mind (I take it is the one labeled ABA Standard).
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LF SOP
Jun 22, 2013 13:40:06 GMT -5
Post by Ivy on Jun 22, 2013 13:40:06 GMT -5
That would be great! Thanks and yes the bantam is the ABA.
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LF SOP
Jun 22, 2013 21:23:34 GMT -5
Post by vtguania on Jun 22, 2013 21:23:34 GMT -5
I looked through the four diferent standards listed here and seems to me that for the most part they are similar with the exception of the tail carriage. The ABA, Russian, and German Standard calls for a the tail to be carried high while the UK carried low yet above horizontal. The old APA Standard for the "Russian" states "carried in an erect position" (http://russianorloff.weebly.com/historical-information.html). Seems to me like the old standard was for only Black RO. Overall I believe it's not much variation between the standards. Would like some feedback from the other members on their opinion and see where we can proceed from here.
I also forgot to mention that the color is of secondary importance and was a deciding point only in
competition. Also slight feathering or down between the toes did not constitute a disqualification.
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LF SOP
Jun 25, 2013 9:25:40 GMT -5
Post by Ivy on Jun 25, 2013 9:25:40 GMT -5
I personally would rather see tail carriage low but above the horizontal, but that is just personal preference. Totally agree about color being secondary and also feel down between the toes is acceptable.
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LF SOP
Jun 25, 2013 21:25:36 GMT -5
Post by vtguania on Jun 25, 2013 21:25:36 GMT -5
I will have to agree with you on tail carriage as well as down between the toes. As for color, seems to me that in the UK they prefer a darker mahogany spangled male with very little white. It may just be me but spangled is spangled whether a bit of white or a lot. Seeing a pic of a Splash, this would be the opposite I think. White with some mahogany spangling. What do you think, I'm not very familiar with the Splash. Also I believe there is a light & a dark cuckoo. I'll see if some of the UK members will allow me to use some of their pics if you want.
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LF SOP
Jun 26, 2013 10:05:36 GMT -5
Post by Ivy on Jun 26, 2013 10:05:36 GMT -5
I am talking with Steve about joining the UK even though I am from the US. They have great amounts of historical and breed info. I think you have the idea of the Splash right. I linked the UK club in our club website, so hopefully people will visit it as well.
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LF SOP
Jul 19, 2013 19:08:12 GMT -5
Post by canieldonrad on Jul 19, 2013 19:08:12 GMT -5
I haven't much been active lately, I have been limiting my involvement in online communities for a while. But I felt I would give information on Standard acceptance. In the constitution for the APA it has some guidelines set out for acceptance.
First off you need 5(or more, no less) breeders, who have bred for 5(or more, no less) years. Who can confirm that offspring are 50% of the time reasonably fit to standard. This doesn't mean they have to match the applicant standard completely 50%, but should be close. A Red or Mahogany cannot be bred and produce a Brown Red/Buff/Black etc offspring. Combs must be consistent. You can't be producing DQ/Defects often(Split wing, Sprigs in the legs, bad beaks etc)
I don't think this will be much of an issue, a lot of people have had them for several years. I am unsure if they consider hatcheries, or hatchery suppliers for this. But 5 years is not a long time, and in the big picture it will likely take 5 years to have it pass anyway.
You will also need at least 3 people who show them consistently. For the breed you need records of more than 200 in 3 years by 3 exhibitors. This can and should include the other varieties. But to have a variety accepted along with the others you need 20 to be exhibited for each variety. I think if the plan is to accept more than Spangled, work would need to be done to communicate and get more varieties to other breeders. I plan to keep Red but not in a remarkable number, so far its looking like I will end up with 8. I have read on Backyard that others have them as well. We just need to make sure that records are kept. Keep all of your coop tags.
You also need to make sure that 2 of each Cock, Cockerel, Hens, Pullets are shown at a show. It doesn't state how many shows, but I assume the more the better. This is their way of contacting the judge who placed the birds to confirm consistency of birds to the applicant standard.
The hardest part will be the last requirement, 50(or more, no less) birds by 5(or more, no less) exhibitors at a meet that has been predetermined by breeders. Best option, National show. I would suggest doing this after meeting the rest of the requirements. Make sure that of the 50, all varieties applying for recognition are shown to boost chances.
To be honest, if you have friends wanting to pick up the hobby this is a great chance to get them into showing. They can't win, but they likely wouldn't starting out anyway. It is a great way to get them used to losing, its part of showing. It also gives them a head first approach to the standard, gets them into knowing its inner workings. Any additional capacity, provided by friends, is going to make it simpler to meet requirements. And I am sure this is what the APA wants to see, introducing new enthusiasts while promoting a breed that has been around for a while but failed so many times in the past.
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LF SOP
Jul 19, 2013 19:32:07 GMT -5
Post by canieldonrad on Jul 19, 2013 19:32:07 GMT -5
You would also want to keep standard close to the Bantam standard
I would suggest following changes.
Original
Origin: Germany
American Status: Not Common
Weight: Cock- 33oz, Hen- 30oz, Cockerel- 30oz, Pullet- 27oz
Shape of Male:
Comb: Walnut - medium size setting firmly and evenly on head, front not to extend beyond point one third way between nostrils and point of beak and extend backwards to a point perpendicular with eyes.
Beak: Short, strong, well curved.
Face: fine in texture, nearly concealed by relatively long muff feathers.
Brow: Heavily furnished with feathers.
Eyes: Large, full, partly concealed by brow feathers.
Wattles: Small, concealed in beard.
Ear Lobes: Small, concealed in beard.
Beard & Muffs: Composed of feathers turning horizontally backwards from both sides of beak, from the center, vertically downwards, the whole forming a collar of three ovals in a triangular group, giving a muffed effect.
Head: Medium size, wide in front, not well rounded, carried so that a line drawn parallel with top of tail will bisect muffs.
Neck: Medium length, well arched.
Hackle: Abundant, feathers rather short, full at base of head, flowing over shoulders and back.
Back: Fairly long, broad at shoulders, tapering convexly, sloping considerably to stern.
Saddle: Abundant, wide, concealing a considerable portion of wing bay.
Tail: Main tail- medium length, feathers broad, fairly well spread, carried well back and at an angle of 70 degrees above horizontal. Sickles- relatively short, very well curved. Lesser Sickles and Coverts- abundant, broad, well curved.
Wings: Medium length, strong, powerful, carried closely and well above lower thighs. Shoulders and Fronts- Slightly raised. Bows- Prominent, well rounded. Coverts- Two distinct rows of broad feathers across wings. Primaries- Medium length and width, completely concealed by secondaries. Secondaries- Medium length, broad, tapering convexly to stern.
Breast: Well rounded, carried high.
Body and Stern: Body- Rather long, medium depth and width. Stern- Well tucked up, full, short.
Legs and Toes: Legs- Medium length, straight when viewed from front. Lower thighs- Medium length, muscular tapering neatly to hocks. Shanks- Medium length, strong, rather coarsely scaled. Spurs: Hard, prominent, double spurs to count extra points. Toes- Four, medium length, strong, straight, well and evenly placed.
Appearance: Alert, pugnacious.
Altered
Origin: Germany
American Status: Not Common
Weight: Choose something along the lines of a medium to large bird, Cock at 8Lbs would likely be something to go by. Not sure how large they are as large fowl at full maturity. I wouldn't go by the size of a Shamo/Brahma that may be a bit over doing the size.
Shape of Male:
Comb: Walnut - medium size setting firmly and evenly on head, front not to extend beyond point one third way between nostrils and point of beak and extend backwards to a point perpendicular with eyes.
Beak: Short, strong, well curved.
Face: fine in texture, nearly concealed by thick, full muff feathers.
Brow: Heavily furnished with feathers.(I would consider tying this into face/eyes section)
Eyes: Large, full, partly concealed by a heavily feathered brow.
Wattles: Small, concealed in beard.
Ear Lobes: Small, concealed in beard.
Beard & Muffs: Full, well-rounded, forming three separate lobes.(Ameracauna)
Head: Medium size, wide in front, not well rounded.(I would suggest removing the tail to beard/muff requirement, it may be a desirable trait added into description but I think it would draw discrimination to birds if it is kept)
Neck: Medium length, well arched.
Hackle: Abundant, feathers rather short, full at base of head, flowing over shoulders and back.
Back: Fairly long, broad at shoulders, tapering convexly, sloping considerably to stern.
Saddle: Abundant, wide, concealing a considerable portion of wing bay.
Tail: Main tail- medium length, feathers broad, fairly well spread, carried well back and at an angle of 70 degrees above horizontal. Sickles- relatively short, very well curved. Lesser Sickles and Coverts- abundant, broad, well curved.
Wings: Medium length, strong, powerful, carried closely and well above lower thighs. Shoulders and Fronts- Slightly raised. Bows- Prominent, well rounded. Coverts- Two distinct rows of broad feathers across wings. Primaries- Medium length and width, completely concealed by secondaries. Secondaries- Medium length, broad, tapering convexly to stern.
Breast: Well rounded, carried high.
Body and Stern: Body- Rather long, medium depth and width. Stern- Well tucked up, full, short.
Legs and Toes: Legs- Medium length, straight when viewed from front. Lower thighs- Medium length, muscular tapering neatly to hocks. Shanks- Medium length, strong, rather coarsely scaled. Toes- Four, medium length, strong, straight, well and evenly placed.( I would remove spurs portion, or go about the fashion of sumatras, and put put "preferred")
A female standard should look similar, although features would be different including the spurs/cock and hen feathering.
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LF SOP
Jul 29, 2013 18:16:23 GMT -5
Post by Ivy on Jul 29, 2013 18:16:23 GMT -5
I think that standard can work well. It is not only attainable, but something we can present to the APA.
I would personally rather the tail read something like: Carriage rather low but slightly above horizontal. But that is simply my preference. I like lower, less abrupt tails. I also think bantams have a tendency toward higher tails.
I am not aware of any multi-spurred large fowl, so I would eliminate that line altogether.
Thanks for putting this out there Daniel.
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LF SOP
Jul 29, 2013 18:21:48 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by canieldonrad on Jul 29, 2013 18:21:48 GMT -5
sumatras are one i know of. all they have in the standard is multiple prefered. to my understanding when judging birds, if there are equals, the older bird wins. in sumatras however, spurs come before age.
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LF SOP
Jul 31, 2013 8:26:20 GMT -5
Post by Ash on Jul 31, 2013 8:26:20 GMT -5
FWIW I agree about tail carriage being low. I hate the look of those Jap Bantams with their tails upright. Let's honor the game ancestry of this breed. I would like to see the appearance list something more predatory and the brow line to include how it should be a heavy ridge extending over the eye to give that raptor appearance.
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LF SOP
Jul 31, 2013 10:31:45 GMT -5
Post by Ivy on Jul 31, 2013 10:31:45 GMT -5
good call on the brow, Ash. I think the head is one of the main features of the breed.
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LF SOP
Jan 31, 2014 20:54:34 GMT -5
Post by vtguania on Jan 31, 2014 20:54:34 GMT -5
Something for us to consider is whether there should be white on the flights or not. I have read both yes & no as far as white on primaries. Since it is true that color is secondary, we should consider how to include what amount of white is or isn't acceptable on the primaries (wings). As for tail, a few of us are in agreement that there should be no white (Spangled Orloff).
In reference to the flights- Should we allow for "atleast" 2-4 white feathers on the primaries/wing (keeping in mind that there are about 8-10 in each wing)? Opinions, suggestions
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