Post by Ivy on May 29, 2013 10:57:26 GMT -5
ORLOFF FORUM #1
24 February 2011
Hello everyone.
For those of you who don't know me, my name is Charles Casper, and you are being sent this forum/newsletter because either your name is listed in the most recent SPPA Breeders Directory as raising Orloffs or I was given your name by someone else (probably Roger Ort) or I knew you had, or are interested in Orloffs. This is a project that I have wanted to do for some time now. I am very interested in trying to get Orloffs admitted (or re-admitted) into the Standard of Perfection and since 2004 I have tried to talk to people in the APA about what to do to achieve this. I have not been very successful. Last summer Roger Ort, who lives about 70 miles SW of me, and Barry Debyah, who lives about 210 miles NE of me, decided to get together to come up with a plan of attack to work towards this goal. But, due to circumstances that all three of us had, the meeting did not occur. This letter is an attempt to get input about what Orloffs should be, ask and answer questions anyone may have about Orloffs, get Orloff breeders together in a unified way and work towards a common goal and anything else that may develop along the way.
I want to say up front that even though this letter is all coming from my point of view, it is only because I am writing it alone. I want to give credit to Roger and Barry for the discussions I have had with them and thank them for the contacts they have given me and the birds they have shared with me. I also want to say that I think I come across as very opinionated, and I am, but I am definitely open minded, and most of my opinions are based on what little personal experience I have had, and I want to learn if I am making mistakes. I am planning to collect any responses I get from this and when it is appropriate, formulate another forum/newsletter with those responses and send it out to continue the discussion. I want your input. Then this will become less "me" and more "us".
So, having said that, let me tell you about my birds and after that, I will have a list of questions with which to start the discussion.
I obtained my first trio of spangled Orloffs from Curtis Flannery at the Ohio National in 2002. Curtis said his birds were "loose" genetically (the opposite of inbred in his words) and I got a lot of diversity in the offspring. If you are a member of the SPPA, you may remember the article I wrote about my Orloffs in the Spring (Summer?) 2008 issue and the discovery because of Craig Russell's constructive criticism (which I definitely appreciated) that my birds' heads were too white. I had been breeding them according to pictures I had seen where I thought the heads were supposed to be white and I got good at it. I am sure I got rid of a lot of decent birds because of my ignorance. Outside of their color, my birds were of decent type. Later that year, I got a trio of nicely colored birds from Barry Koffler, who runs the Poultry Page web site and two dark pullets from Barry Debyah that he got from someone who said they came from Texas. Someone (I think it was Roger) later looked at them and said they looked exactly like some Orloffs that he knew came from Ideal Hatchery in Texas (I don't think they have Orloffs any more). They were of the most perfect type I had seen, but they had almost no white on them at all, just some black tipped feathers. I only have one of those hens now, and this year, when she was almost 2 years old, she molted out to almost perfect spangling. I got some very nice offspring from her. So, I have three lines mixed in now and I am keeping pedigrees to get better results and prevent inbreeding. I had 6 breeding pens last year.
After I wrote the SPPA article, I got a letter from Bob Kosek in Minnesota (I hope that spelling is correct- I can't find that letter right now and I want to send a copy of this to him) and he gave me some advice about questions in my article. He also sent me a copy of the British Poultry Standards on Orloffs. Some of the questions I will have below will refer to those standards. If anyone wants a copy of them, let me know and I will include it in the next letter. Hopefully, no one will tell on me for violating copyrights. I haven't looked at the bantam Orloff standard. I don't have a lot of interest in bantams except for the ones that have no large counterpart like Nankins, D'Anvers, D'Uccles, Dutch, Silkies, Seramas, Kentucky Specks, etc. To me they are too ornamental. I told you I was opinionated. Having said that, my daughter had some black Orpington bantams once that I would have loved to have had as a production flock, if I was into production birds. I don't have anything against people raising bantams, it's just my personal preference.
Question #1: Barry D. last summer gave me a copy of the Feb. 2010 issue of Practical Poultry, a British magazine, that had a cover story on Orloffs. There were a few inaccuracies in it, especially what Orloffs were like in this country (mainly black and called "Russians"), but overall, it was good and coincided with the British Poultry Standard. The type they describe is accurate for what we have, but the color explanation is different. I am only referring to spangled here. The British Standard does say that type is much more important and color is a secondary consideration. The description of the color they use for males is like the APA description for spangled Old English with basically a dark BBR with as much spangling as possible (on each feather ideally). It calls for a black breast background color in the males. In the females, the British standard calls for a uniform mahogany-ish background color with spangling. The APA Old English spangling for females is a BBR pattern with spangling. So, I guess what I am asking is do we want to use their standard, or do we want an APA definition of "spangled" with a BBR background color, or do we want them to be what I think is more desirable: something more like a speckled Sussex or a dark mille fleur pattern where there is no black breast background in the males and both males and females have a more uniform mahogany background color? Also, both the article and the Standard said the primaries are white, which is not allowed in either APA standard for spangled , speckled Sussex, or mille fleur. I personally have no problem with this. If we are ever in the position of writing a Standard, it can have our own variations. The same idea goes for the amount of white in the head, although I do agree with Craig that my birds had too much white. I think the pictures I have seen of Orloffs with more white in the heads than a Sussex but not as white as a Hereford looks very nice and seems easy to breed for. I do have males now though with more Sussex-like heads and I could easily live with that. I think the idea that color should be a definite secondary consideration is desirable because I don't want to see Orloffs, because of their rarity, become too inbred over a color issue. The same weekend that Craig looked at my birds (Ohio National, 2007), the Ohio Game Breeders had a meet that had many non-standard Games including Asils. Craig told me about the difference between American type Asils and what the original birds were/are like. On YouTube there are many videos from ranasafdar71 who lives in Pakistan of his Asils, and to me these birds are beautiful in their purity of type, now that I have some understanding of them. But their color is all over the place. (If I ever go nuts some day and get into another breed, it will probably be Asils) I think Orloffs should have some degree of this diversity and more like the original birds. I don't want them to be a modern creation.
Question #2: Feathers on the legs. The British Standard does not mention any disqualification for feathers on the legs, but the article does state that pin feathers do occur on the legs sometimes but that, generally, the legs should be clean. I have minimally feather legged birds show up every year in my chicks and I do not automatically cull them out if their other characteristics and pedigrees are good. Again, not trying to limit diversity. As my Marans friends have been telling me, the APA wants it one way or the other, not something intermediate. I like the British view in this case.
Question #3: Hardiness. Is anyone having hardiness issues? I hope not. Before I added new bloodlines into my birds, hardiness was never a problem. They were fertile, the hens were commonly the only breed laying in the winter (although not in great quantity), and I usually had more than enough young grow up to pick from for the following year's breeders. This year though, and this is probably my fault, I had a lot of die-off of the young. I was in and out of the hospital for minor stuff through the summer and I admit things were not as clean as I would have liked. So I am sure that that was a factor, but I gave eggs to friends that had hens of other breeds that were setting, hatched out the Orloffs along with other breeds and the Orloff chicks grew up until early adolescence, and then died, while the other breeds did not. So I am wondering if anyone thinks I may have some kind of genetic problem. This question is probably not answerable without further study of what happens this year. I'll have to keep on top of my pedigrees.
Question #4: One oddity that I have had is when I move chicks from the brooders to larger pens. They huddle up on the floor or ground and smother the bottom birds. Every night I lose some. I have tried moving them to indoor pens, outdoor pens, heat, no heat, large amounts of space, very large amounts of space, little amounts of space, roosts, no roosts, lights, no lights and other variations. The only option that has any effect, and that is minimal, is to move them into a pen that is only a little larger than their brooder. And these birds were already too big for a brooder, so I had to move them into something bigger not too long after the initial move. And then, the die-off happened again. It is weird.
Question #5: Are your hens broody? I have had some hens that have shown signs of broodiness, but as of yet, I have hatched everything in incubators. Maybe that is some of my problem in Question #4. Maybe this year I'll let one of my Old English hens hatch some and see what happens. Also, if I get good hatches, maybe I'll let some Orloff hens give it a shot.
Question #6: If we were to, some optimistic day down the line, have a qualifying meet to have Orloffs admitted into the Standard, how difficult do you think it would be to have cockerels and pullets shown acceptably? My birds grow so slowly, that I don't think they are showable until they are technically not cockerels and pullets any more. Maybe we'll have to write the standard to meet their lack of maturity characteristics.
Well, I guess that's enough for now. Please write back and we'll see if we can get something going. The Poultry Page has the Russian Orloff Club listed under Curtis Flannery's name and I hope that it exists, but I have not been involved with it and only recently found out about its existence. Curtis, please get back to me on this. There was an attempt about five years ago to get something going by a guy in Vermont named Erin Traverse, but after two newsletters, it stopped. If there is a club, I am not trying to take over or even become any kind of officer. I simply do not have the time to stick to any kind of schedule like a newsletter or meetings, etc. As it is, this forum will only happen again when I get responses. My goal, as I stated earlier, is one of coordination. I am not only asking for responses to my questions, but also for you to ask questions that we, as a group can answer for you. I am planning to go to the APA/ABA National in Indianapolis in October and I am planning to bring Orloffs. I would love it if we could get a big group of them there and I could meet you.
That's it. Thanks for reading this.
Charlie
24 February 2011
Hello everyone.
For those of you who don't know me, my name is Charles Casper, and you are being sent this forum/newsletter because either your name is listed in the most recent SPPA Breeders Directory as raising Orloffs or I was given your name by someone else (probably Roger Ort) or I knew you had, or are interested in Orloffs. This is a project that I have wanted to do for some time now. I am very interested in trying to get Orloffs admitted (or re-admitted) into the Standard of Perfection and since 2004 I have tried to talk to people in the APA about what to do to achieve this. I have not been very successful. Last summer Roger Ort, who lives about 70 miles SW of me, and Barry Debyah, who lives about 210 miles NE of me, decided to get together to come up with a plan of attack to work towards this goal. But, due to circumstances that all three of us had, the meeting did not occur. This letter is an attempt to get input about what Orloffs should be, ask and answer questions anyone may have about Orloffs, get Orloff breeders together in a unified way and work towards a common goal and anything else that may develop along the way.
I want to say up front that even though this letter is all coming from my point of view, it is only because I am writing it alone. I want to give credit to Roger and Barry for the discussions I have had with them and thank them for the contacts they have given me and the birds they have shared with me. I also want to say that I think I come across as very opinionated, and I am, but I am definitely open minded, and most of my opinions are based on what little personal experience I have had, and I want to learn if I am making mistakes. I am planning to collect any responses I get from this and when it is appropriate, formulate another forum/newsletter with those responses and send it out to continue the discussion. I want your input. Then this will become less "me" and more "us".
So, having said that, let me tell you about my birds and after that, I will have a list of questions with which to start the discussion.
I obtained my first trio of spangled Orloffs from Curtis Flannery at the Ohio National in 2002. Curtis said his birds were "loose" genetically (the opposite of inbred in his words) and I got a lot of diversity in the offspring. If you are a member of the SPPA, you may remember the article I wrote about my Orloffs in the Spring (Summer?) 2008 issue and the discovery because of Craig Russell's constructive criticism (which I definitely appreciated) that my birds' heads were too white. I had been breeding them according to pictures I had seen where I thought the heads were supposed to be white and I got good at it. I am sure I got rid of a lot of decent birds because of my ignorance. Outside of their color, my birds were of decent type. Later that year, I got a trio of nicely colored birds from Barry Koffler, who runs the Poultry Page web site and two dark pullets from Barry Debyah that he got from someone who said they came from Texas. Someone (I think it was Roger) later looked at them and said they looked exactly like some Orloffs that he knew came from Ideal Hatchery in Texas (I don't think they have Orloffs any more). They were of the most perfect type I had seen, but they had almost no white on them at all, just some black tipped feathers. I only have one of those hens now, and this year, when she was almost 2 years old, she molted out to almost perfect spangling. I got some very nice offspring from her. So, I have three lines mixed in now and I am keeping pedigrees to get better results and prevent inbreeding. I had 6 breeding pens last year.
After I wrote the SPPA article, I got a letter from Bob Kosek in Minnesota (I hope that spelling is correct- I can't find that letter right now and I want to send a copy of this to him) and he gave me some advice about questions in my article. He also sent me a copy of the British Poultry Standards on Orloffs. Some of the questions I will have below will refer to those standards. If anyone wants a copy of them, let me know and I will include it in the next letter. Hopefully, no one will tell on me for violating copyrights. I haven't looked at the bantam Orloff standard. I don't have a lot of interest in bantams except for the ones that have no large counterpart like Nankins, D'Anvers, D'Uccles, Dutch, Silkies, Seramas, Kentucky Specks, etc. To me they are too ornamental. I told you I was opinionated. Having said that, my daughter had some black Orpington bantams once that I would have loved to have had as a production flock, if I was into production birds. I don't have anything against people raising bantams, it's just my personal preference.
Question #1: Barry D. last summer gave me a copy of the Feb. 2010 issue of Practical Poultry, a British magazine, that had a cover story on Orloffs. There were a few inaccuracies in it, especially what Orloffs were like in this country (mainly black and called "Russians"), but overall, it was good and coincided with the British Poultry Standard. The type they describe is accurate for what we have, but the color explanation is different. I am only referring to spangled here. The British Standard does say that type is much more important and color is a secondary consideration. The description of the color they use for males is like the APA description for spangled Old English with basically a dark BBR with as much spangling as possible (on each feather ideally). It calls for a black breast background color in the males. In the females, the British standard calls for a uniform mahogany-ish background color with spangling. The APA Old English spangling for females is a BBR pattern with spangling. So, I guess what I am asking is do we want to use their standard, or do we want an APA definition of "spangled" with a BBR background color, or do we want them to be what I think is more desirable: something more like a speckled Sussex or a dark mille fleur pattern where there is no black breast background in the males and both males and females have a more uniform mahogany background color? Also, both the article and the Standard said the primaries are white, which is not allowed in either APA standard for spangled , speckled Sussex, or mille fleur. I personally have no problem with this. If we are ever in the position of writing a Standard, it can have our own variations. The same idea goes for the amount of white in the head, although I do agree with Craig that my birds had too much white. I think the pictures I have seen of Orloffs with more white in the heads than a Sussex but not as white as a Hereford looks very nice and seems easy to breed for. I do have males now though with more Sussex-like heads and I could easily live with that. I think the idea that color should be a definite secondary consideration is desirable because I don't want to see Orloffs, because of their rarity, become too inbred over a color issue. The same weekend that Craig looked at my birds (Ohio National, 2007), the Ohio Game Breeders had a meet that had many non-standard Games including Asils. Craig told me about the difference between American type Asils and what the original birds were/are like. On YouTube there are many videos from ranasafdar71 who lives in Pakistan of his Asils, and to me these birds are beautiful in their purity of type, now that I have some understanding of them. But their color is all over the place. (If I ever go nuts some day and get into another breed, it will probably be Asils) I think Orloffs should have some degree of this diversity and more like the original birds. I don't want them to be a modern creation.
Question #2: Feathers on the legs. The British Standard does not mention any disqualification for feathers on the legs, but the article does state that pin feathers do occur on the legs sometimes but that, generally, the legs should be clean. I have minimally feather legged birds show up every year in my chicks and I do not automatically cull them out if their other characteristics and pedigrees are good. Again, not trying to limit diversity. As my Marans friends have been telling me, the APA wants it one way or the other, not something intermediate. I like the British view in this case.
Question #3: Hardiness. Is anyone having hardiness issues? I hope not. Before I added new bloodlines into my birds, hardiness was never a problem. They were fertile, the hens were commonly the only breed laying in the winter (although not in great quantity), and I usually had more than enough young grow up to pick from for the following year's breeders. This year though, and this is probably my fault, I had a lot of die-off of the young. I was in and out of the hospital for minor stuff through the summer and I admit things were not as clean as I would have liked. So I am sure that that was a factor, but I gave eggs to friends that had hens of other breeds that were setting, hatched out the Orloffs along with other breeds and the Orloff chicks grew up until early adolescence, and then died, while the other breeds did not. So I am wondering if anyone thinks I may have some kind of genetic problem. This question is probably not answerable without further study of what happens this year. I'll have to keep on top of my pedigrees.
Question #4: One oddity that I have had is when I move chicks from the brooders to larger pens. They huddle up on the floor or ground and smother the bottom birds. Every night I lose some. I have tried moving them to indoor pens, outdoor pens, heat, no heat, large amounts of space, very large amounts of space, little amounts of space, roosts, no roosts, lights, no lights and other variations. The only option that has any effect, and that is minimal, is to move them into a pen that is only a little larger than their brooder. And these birds were already too big for a brooder, so I had to move them into something bigger not too long after the initial move. And then, the die-off happened again. It is weird.
Question #5: Are your hens broody? I have had some hens that have shown signs of broodiness, but as of yet, I have hatched everything in incubators. Maybe that is some of my problem in Question #4. Maybe this year I'll let one of my Old English hens hatch some and see what happens. Also, if I get good hatches, maybe I'll let some Orloff hens give it a shot.
Question #6: If we were to, some optimistic day down the line, have a qualifying meet to have Orloffs admitted into the Standard, how difficult do you think it would be to have cockerels and pullets shown acceptably? My birds grow so slowly, that I don't think they are showable until they are technically not cockerels and pullets any more. Maybe we'll have to write the standard to meet their lack of maturity characteristics.
Well, I guess that's enough for now. Please write back and we'll see if we can get something going. The Poultry Page has the Russian Orloff Club listed under Curtis Flannery's name and I hope that it exists, but I have not been involved with it and only recently found out about its existence. Curtis, please get back to me on this. There was an attempt about five years ago to get something going by a guy in Vermont named Erin Traverse, but after two newsletters, it stopped. If there is a club, I am not trying to take over or even become any kind of officer. I simply do not have the time to stick to any kind of schedule like a newsletter or meetings, etc. As it is, this forum will only happen again when I get responses. My goal, as I stated earlier, is one of coordination. I am not only asking for responses to my questions, but also for you to ask questions that we, as a group can answer for you. I am planning to go to the APA/ABA National in Indianapolis in October and I am planning to bring Orloffs. I would love it if we could get a big group of them there and I could meet you.
That's it. Thanks for reading this.
Charlie